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Iskustva B12 deficita
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ogi
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
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Lokacija: Zagreb

PostPostano: 27.8.2008. sri. 21:29    Naslov: Iskustva B12 deficita Citiraj i odgovori

A friend of mine, has been vegan for quite a long time.
them she got pregnant, and had a baby. a couple of months after the baby was born, they found out that she had been suffering from b12 deficiency, so the beby has a mild brain damage, and will probably never be a "normal" child. i find this a bit scary, as the doctors should have tested her b12 levels, when they knew she was a vegan, right? when they found out the child had deficiency, they gave him injections, and it helped a bit, but still, the child is not normal.

this is a really spooky b12 deficiency story.
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ogi
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 11128
Lokacija: Zagreb

PostPostano: 27.8.2008. sri. 21:29    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

I've been a vegetarian for almost 20 years, and a vegan for about 1/2 that time. I just recently tested low for B12 - about half of the 'minimum' normal. I was astounded, as I consume lots of fortified foods, sea weeds, wheat grass juice, and take occastional supplements. I only recently became aquainted with the methylcobalamin/cyanocobalmin difference. I couldn't even get the methylcobalmin at the whole foods in downtown chicago, and finally ordered on line. I think it's starting to work and I'm amazed at the difference, although it's a little up and down. I feel like I've been living in a cloud for years and it's starting to lift. Although it gives me some hope, it's like waking out of a coma after 5 years. On the one hand, yeah, I'm alive, on the other, god, I just missed out on 5 years!

I was experiencing all kinds of random physical and mental quirks and problems that I would never have dreamed were related to each other. It's too soon for me to tell but everything seems to be getting better all at once. Sometimes I feel great with load of energy, sometimes thick and unbalanced like I'm on drugs, and sometimes a little of the old mental fog.

My advice is don't wait! Don't lose the time! I really thought I was OK most of the time, like someone who needed glasses, but thought they were seeing ok. Get some of the megadose sublingual methylcobalamin and take it every day for 2 weeks and if you feel better you needed it. Sometime I got kind of high after taking a lot, but I figured that was proof positive that it was getting into my brain cells. And boy did they need it.
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Salem Melody
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PostPostano: 27.8.2008. sri. 22:11    Naslov: Re: Iskustva B12 deficita Citiraj i odgovori

ogi je napisao/la:
A friend of mine, has been vegan for quite a long time.
them she got pregnant, and had a baby. a couple of months after the baby was born, they found out that she had been suffering from b12 deficiency, so the beby has a mild brain damage, and will probably never be a "normal" child. i find this a bit scary, as the doctors should have tested her b12 levels, when they knew she was a vegan, right? when they found out the child had deficiency, they gave him injections, and it helped a bit, but still, the child is not normal.

this is a really spooky b12 deficiency story.


Ajme...
Ali ipak, ona si je sama kriva. Ako je ona vegan, trebala bi znati da joj je potreban vitamin B12 i kupiti ga. Ili možda nije bila dobro informirana u veganstvo...Sad
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Luna



Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 30.9.2008. uto. 22:25    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
Mirela 03.05. 2002. 22:25

Vitamin B12
Moja mama ima 59 godina. 1991. je operirala karcinom dojke. U posljednjih nekoliko godina stalno se zali na bolove u leđima, grceve u listovima, vene, bol u koljenu i slicno. Unatrag dva mjeseca je jako smrsavila (20 kg), osim sto je imala problema sa zubalom - jednostavno je prestala jesti, te ubrzo nakon toga i prestala hodati tako da je gotovo nepokretna. Uopce ne moze stati na noge i vise ne moze hodati niti uz pomoc staka ili pridrzavanje nekoga od nas. Nalazi svih obavljenih pretraga su u redu (dopler glave, CT glave, scintgrafija kostiju, ginekoloski, krvna slika, rentgen srca i pluca, UZV abdomena ...). Onkoloski sve u redu. Fizijatrica je rekla da su misici atrofirali te nakon mjesec dana svakodnevne rehabilitacije od strane fizioterapeuta nema nikakvog pomaka na bolje. Psihijatrica je prepisala antidepresive. Prije dva tjedna je hospitalizirana te su jos ucinjeni i gastroskkopija i EMG i MR kraljeznice kao i svi moguci markeri na tumore. Svi nalazi su u redu. Konacno je napravljena i punkcija ledjne mozdine i u nalazu je ispalo da joj nedostaje vitamina B12 te su to lijecnici postavili kao konacnu dijagnozu. Zar je moguce da zbog nedostatka B12 vitamina ne moze hodati?
Puno hvala na odgovoru

Citat:
Doc. dr. Zlatko Trkanjec 10.06. 2002. 22:50

Re: Vitamin B12
Nedostatak vitamina B 12 može oštetiti živčane puteve u kralješničnoj moždini i uzrokovati poteškoće i u krajnjem stadiju i nemogućnost hodanja. Bolest se liječi uzimanjem vitamina B 12 u obliku injekcija, a oporavak može biti dugotrajan.

http://www.cybermed.hr/index.php/pbl/portal_za_pacijente/registar_pitanja_i_odgovora/medicina/neurologija/vitamin_b12

Confused
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Luna



Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 30.9.2008. uto. 22:35    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
PRERANO DOBIJANJE SIJEDIH
Mogući uzrok: Perniciozna anemija
Prerano dobijanje sijedih može biti znak nedostatka vitamina B12 (ovaj vitamin je bitan za rast kose i pigmentaciju). Ovaj simptom je poznat i pod nazivom -perniciozna anemija". - Ukoliko je u organizmu prisutan nedostatak vitamina B12, stvara se manji broj crvenih krvnih zrnaca koja su neuobičajeno velika i veoma kratko žive, što dovodi do anemije, kaže dr. Hicks. Ostali simptomi mogu biti umor, gubitak težine i dijareja. Vitamin B12 se nalazi samo u namirnicama životinjskog porijekla, kao što su meso, riba, sir, jaja i mlijeko, tako da se kod strogih vegetarijanaca koji ne uzimaju dodatak sa sadržajem ovog vitamina može pojaviti nedostatak ovog vitamina. Dijagnoza se uspostavlja jednostavnim testiranjem krvi i rješava injekcijama vitamina B12 (ukoliko se unosi u drugom obliki, tablete i slično, ne apsorcira se na pravilan način)
Nakon što se ovaj nedostatak otkloni, do kraja života, svaka tri mjeseca je potrebno unositi dozu za održavanje potrebnog nivoa ovog vitamina.

http://ljepotaa.blogger.ba/arhiva/2007/12/07/1252613
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milevaindia



Pridružen/a: 03. 11. 2007.
Postovi: 618
Lokacija: sombor, srbija

PostPostano: 30.9.2008. uto. 22:45    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

iskreno ja sam pocela polako sediti u 19-toj godini...sad u 28.oj sam skoro potpuno seda....... {farbam se}.... no, moj tata je poceo isto tako rano sediti, a nije bio vege.......
i znam puno devojaka koje su ili malo ili puno sede, ali ih je sramota da kazu........a nisu vege......
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Luna



Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 30.9.2008. uto. 22:49    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

milevaindia je napisao/la:
a nisu vege

Slučajevi B12 deficita/ zdravstveni problemi zabilježeni su i kod osoba koje jedu meso.
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Luna



Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 1.10.2008. sri. 20:53    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
Htela bih da se najpre zahvalim na informacijama, linkovima i savetima. U medjuvremenu i sama sam se detaljnije obavestila o temi ali nažalost i imala upozoravajuće iskustvo kao, pretpostavljam, posledicu upravo nedostatka vitamina B12. Naime, moj problem se manifestovao u nekontrolisanom "igranju" jednog mišića na desnoj strani lica ispod oka, što je spoljašnja pojava koje uglavnom nisam bila svesna sve dok se ne nadjem pred ogledalom, i čestog osećaja "napetosti" u licu. Skoro po pravilu je ova pojava trajala čitav dan od samog jutra. Počelo je posle perioda u kome sam imala emotivno teških situacija ali i većih fizičkih iscrpljivanja tokom tronedeljnog putovanja na kome sam često bila prinudjena da, osim sirovog voća i nešto povrća, prilično promenim način ishrane (bila sam često upućena na belo brašno i kolače koje inače ne jedem). Takodje sam u dužem periodu i pre toga bila zanemarila svoju odluku da bar jednom sedmično jedem ribu. Moj problem je trajao više od mesec dana. U početku sam ga ignorisala ("proći će samo"), počela da nosim naočare (-0,5) a zatim sam posumnjala na moj inače nizak nivo B12 u krvi. Prvo sam pokušala da manjim korekcijama u ishrani povećam unos i iskoristljivost B12, B6 i folne kiseline. Kako nije došlo do ozbiljnijeg poboljšanja vrlo nevoljno sam uzela nekoliko puta tabletu B12 suplementa (1mgr, Natural Wealth) - opet bez rezultata. Skoro da sam se pomirila da ću trajno imati "tikove". Na kraju sam se odlučila da zatražim injekcije B12. Primila sam ukupno pet injekcija, stanje se primetno poboljšavalo a posle pete injekcije do danas praktično nisam više imala problem.

http://www.zdravzivot.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=vegetarijanstvo;action=display;num=1101585803
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aspalatus



Pridružen/a: 12. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 2575
Lokacija: Split

PostPostano: 2.10.2008. čet. 00:26    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
Sada ćemo nešto reći o vitaminu B 12. Ako dovoljno vremena provodite na suncu imate ovaj vitamin i ne morate da brinete. Ljudi kažu da možete dobiti ovaj vitamin samo iz proizvoda životinjskog porekla. Ali ni jedna životinja ne proizvodi ovaj vitamin. Čak ni jedna biljka to ne čini. Bakterije proizvode B 12. Dakle, životinje imaju bakterije koje proizvode B 12 i zato ovaj vitamin postoji u mesu. Sve životinje na zemlji dobijaju ovaj vitamin iz bakterija. Nemojte misliti da nedostatak vitamina B 12 imate samo kod vegetarijanaca. On je izražen i kod onih koji jedu meso. Zato što, da bi se taj vitamin apsorbovao, potrebno je puno složenih sastojaka koji bi u tome učestvovali. Ali, samo vegetarijanci dospevaju u novine kada imaju nedostatak ovog vitamina. Vegetarijanci bi trebalo da počnu da iznose po novinama slučajeve onih koji jedu meso i imaju nedostatak vitamina B 12. To je čisto zbog ravnoteže. Što je sredina više bazna, dobijaju se više tih bakterija. Što je kiselost veća, manje ima ovih bakterija. U vašim organima za varenje, ako od početka do kraja procesa varenja imate više alkalnu nego kiselu sredinu, imaćete i više te bakterije. U onom poslednjem delu organa za varenje ima više te bakterije. Ali potrebno je da se B 12 apsorbuje u nešto višim delovima organa za varenje. Kod većine ljudi, ako date na ispitivanje vašu pljuvačku, pronaći će se da je vaša pljuvačka kisela. A ako ste vegetarijanac, ona će biti alkalna. Mi imamo taj kiseli sistem zbog naše ishrane.

Radili smo brojne eksperimente, a o ovome je i po svetu rađeno mnogo eksperimenata, otkrili smo da se ceo sistem organa za varenje menja kad pređete na vegetarijansku ishranu. Tako da ako ste podizani bilo kao vegetarijanac ili nevegetarijanac, ako je neko bio vegetarijanac ima duža creva i imaće više receptora. A šta sa vitaminom B 12. Ako ste sve uradili savršeno ispravno, imaćete u svojim ustima bakteriju koja proizvodi B 12, a vaš PG – kiselost stomaka neće nikada biti više od ovoga, i onda će se B 12 pojaviti i grafikon će biti mnogo veći. Trebalo bi da možete da proizvedete dovoljnu količinu vitamina B 12. Eksperimentima je dokazano da čak i kad čovek ima nedostatak vitamina B­12 proizvodi ga u dovoljnoj količini. Užasni eksperiment: uzmu fekalije, i izvade sav B 12, daju ga nazad i ovaj se nedostatak izgubi. Dakle, imali ste dovoljno proizvedenog vitamina B 12. Dokazano je da vam je potrebno samo 0,1 mikrogram po danu ovog vitamina. A za prosečnu osobu koja nema nedostatak enzima, potrebno je 15-20 god. da se pojavi nedostatak B 12. Postoji jedan intrizični faktor koji vam pomaže da apsorbujete B 12, tako da ako sada prestanete da koristite B 12, nedostatak će se pojaviti tek za 3 ili 4 god. Ljudi postanu vegetarijanci i onda tri nedelje kasnije kažu da on ima nedostatak vitamina B 12 jer je prešao na vegetarijansku ishranu. To je potpuno suludo.

Da vam dam i drugu stranu: ako ste sve uradili ispravno, trebalo bi da imate dovoljno ovih bakterija koje će proizvoditi vitamin B 12. Ali živimo u brzom svetu i u svetu stresa. A stres uzrokuje kiselost i on pogađa koliko je vaš sistem kiseo. To znači da je u pitanju da li imate dovoljno bakterija koje proizvode B 12 da biste iz tog izvora imali dovoljno B 12. A nauka je rešila taj problem. Možete koristiti dodatke. Ili možete koristiti proizvode koji su ojačani sa B 12. Za mene lično, ja ću koristiti sojino mleko koje je ojačano sa B 12, nikad neću svakog dana uzimati vitamine B 12, ali jednom u godinu ili dve otići ću na ispitivanje i ako je nizak B 12 u mom organizmu, ja ću uzeti dodatak. Ali, tokom 16 god. nikom u mojoj porodici nije čak ni predloženo da uzimamo dodatke vitamina B 12. Ne morate uzimati životinjske proizvede da bi ste dobili dovoljno ovog vitamina.

Prof. dr Walter Veith


http://www.zdravzivot.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=vegetarijanstvo;action=display;num=1101585803
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Luna



Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 2.10.2008. čet. 12:03    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
Here is a report from a vegan who developed B12 deficiency, from fruitnut.net:

Had you asked me 3 years ago, I would have suggested that B12 problems with a vegan (high raw food) dietary was due to poor food choices and/or a conspiracy put about by animal eaters. Now, having had experience with the effects of low B12, I offer these comments. I do so in the hope that the attitude of many people and groups who wish to see the Vegan way remain 'untarnished', may find a new and exciting outlet for a real advancement of the Vegan diet and subsequently improved attitudes in the wider community, to our fellow creatures.

There is I believe a large body of subjective information which if it were to be thoughtfully published, may relieve a lot of anxiety and misconceptions which have surrounded this topic for many years.

Numerous references to the RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) and suggested Serum B12 levels and MMA readings are available, as are symptoms and potential causes of variations in measurable quantities of B12 in the body. Test methods (blood, urine and assimilation), availability from foods, statistical data related to vegan/vegetarian groups as well as for human carnivores has been documented in scientific studies over the last 30 years or so. Please refer to vegan literature, articles in magazines and on the internet for these details. (Search for B12 in any of the related vegan links, or with Search engines.)

The purpose of this article is to commence a catalogue of personal experiences, so that people have access to real stories and not just a scientific kit bag of research data and second hand experiences, possibly losing the means of usefully identifying causes in the re-telling.

Current medical advice suggests NO upper limit, potentially a B12 level of well over a 1000 pg/ml blood if B12 injections are utilised. Some sports related professionals may well have extended this also, as B12 is sometimes given by injection to athletes.

From vegan literature, a suggested minimum of some 100-120 pg/ml blood for B12 appears for many long-term vegans to be satisfactory in tested subjects for subjective acceptability of health status.

My experience of two separate incidences about 12 months apart, with low B12 symptoms and low B12 measurements, is briefly explained below.

First Experience
In 1999, I had been predominately raw food (90% plus) for around 6 years and a practising vegan for some 9 years. After 2-3 months with intense periods of stress, (my hair turned grey also!), I had my B12 blood levels checked for the first time. A single test revealed a sample of 56 pg/ml with high follate levels. Not wishing to administer either supplements or injections, I decided to re-aliment with a change in diet. Large quantities of parsley, some mushrooms and green leaf were consumed at usual mealtime between 5.30pm and 7pm. In addition I left the high raw food regime and reduced to about 70-80% for a week or two. Eating some tempeh, steamed vegetables and a daily intake of about 300 ml of soyoghurt. I also sought out seaweed. A few meals included baked potatoes. My expectation that my B12 levels would be restored in this way was never in doubt. The selected re-alimentation procedure was based on:

* Soyoghurt to re-establish intestinal flora particularly, including acidopholous bacillus present and listed on container.

* Pineapple one lunchtime for a high acid content. A few days later, paw-paw (papaya) at lunch for high alkaline content. All other lunch meals and afternoon grazing on fruit as usual.

* Tempeh made locally in my village, is untested for B12 content. The care and dedication of the manufacturer to make a product specifically for vegans though, and his experience with tempeh manufacture, including in Indonesia, with access to B12 data around the world, suggested to me there would be some B12 present.

* Greens, lightly washed, many from home garden. A lot of references in vegan/B12 literature indicate minute organisms and bacteria settle on garden leaf. These included parsley, spinach, green outer lettuce leaves, kale and Chinese leaf, pakchoy and bokchoy.

* Emotional assistance from a higher percentage of cooked foods, during wintertime. As I was still not 100% rawfoods, I thought this was a good opportunity to 'give myself some love'. I was/had been under duress and I wanted to reduce as much as possible any potential source of mental pressure. I felt that I may have been trying too hard to be a 'rawfooder. I knew I still would enjoy some foods which I had forbidden myself, even though feeling an attachment to them if others were eating in my presence. (Read baked potatoes, yummy soyoghurt and tempting tamari tempeh!).

* Seaweed, some diced raw weed and some roasted nori sheets. From published data seaweed contains measurable amounts of B12 in many tests. Mushrooms similarly, regularly show traces of B12.

*Complete rest as best I could with help from a few wonderful friends.

*Time for the external source of my initial stress to dissipate.

Three weeks later, I had another B12 blood test. This confirmed my subjective feelings, I was getting better. The single sample from the same laboratory showed a B12 level of 146 pg/ml. ( Compared to 56 pg/ml previously.) I felt more positive in myself, I was actively helping myself to heal, periods of dizziness and mental confusion and poor decision making were lessened and overall I was reconnected with the power of my own judgement and self control. The timing of this first experience was between August and early September 1999.

Transitional Period

I continued the altered regime for the 3 week period, with an increasing amount of rawfoods after the first week, regular seaweed and fresh herbs every day, leading to a similar 90% plus raw food intake with occasional baked potato binges until March 2000, when I commenced 100% raw foods. I have since felt perfectly happy with this final transition, with no lingering attachment or desire for any other foods, whether previously ' self-forbidden ' or not.

Typical meals

My basic eating regime is largely unchanged with first food at 11am or later consisting of seasonal/purchased fruit, such as orange, apple, banana icecream, mangoes, durian, persimmon, blueberries, stone fruit or my own nectarines, papaya or whatever else is the 'food of the week' from my shopping spree. Avacado or occasionally some nuts /seeds whole soaked or milked add some 'bulk' to satisfy. Grazing usually to some extent in afternoon depending on activity, time of year etc. with fruits in season and a salad for dinner at 5.30pm-7pm dependant on time of year, extent of hunger etc. Evening salad is a combination meal, with a green sludge herb sauce, or lemon/orange/oil dressing with garlic possibly. Tomato, cucumber, greenest leaf and fresh herbs form the daily basis to which is added avacado, celery, a small amount of grated carrot and/ beetroot, daikon, mushrooms, etc. and anything else raw around the kitchen or garden at the time of preparation. Often this is supplemented by a few pieces of fruit a little afterwards, or a rawfood ball, (dried fruit and nuts/seeds blended with a small piece of banana or apple for moisture and combining.)

Second Experience
The second adventure with B12 commenced about 4 months after my adopting the 100% rawfood regime:

In June I noticed upon waking that my toes and fingers appeared to have poor circulation. As this was onset of winter, temperatures frequently would be less than 3 degrees C overnight, and often down to -2/-3 degrees C, leading to cold extremities in any case. I did not immediately connect this symptom. I also noticed some dizziness when standing up quickly - again an experience not unknown to me in recent years. This usually happened when energy levels were low, during and after a fast, at other times if I had lost weight quickly or was less fit. Also at times on 100% fruit regime for months at a time I attributed this spaciness to 'not being grounded'. - The spiritual effects of a fruitarian food intake!

Anyway, a few weeks later, my left thumb began to feel numb, which feeling progressed over the next 6-8 weeks with the numbness spreading to my left forefinger and up the web of my left hand. I suspected that this may be B12 related, but I was unsure and so I waited to see if this was some other natural action my body was causing.

Consequently by mid-August, after about 10-12 weeks of the symptoms of numbness, with me having travelled North to a warmer climate and still finding my other fingers also tingling and getting a sense of numbness, the low B12 question was almost constantly on my mind.

I was disappointed that perhaps a 100% rawfood regime seemed questionable for me and scanned literature and the Internet to clarify other peoples experiences and advice.

I found nothing to support a rawfood vegan diet in terms of naturally occurring KNOWN raw sources of B12, only references to debatable cobalimin analogues, little scientific help and even less subjective details. How had I arrived here after so many years thinking I was improving my health and ending up with a sure B12 deficiency symptom and no natural solution for a 100% raw fooder. I felt alone all of a sudden. My first experience last year had been re-alimenting using some processed foods, what to do next?

I decided on a B12 test. I waited 2 days for the results and thought long and hard about the consequences of prolonging my present status and finding some quick way of resolving my predicament. When the results came back, the value was less than 45mcg/l B12 in my blood and therefore not recordable.

After a telephone call to the clinic I was told that the instruments lower limit could not measure below that figure and that this was a very low level in their view. This was of course confirmed by the doctor and nurse when I received the sample results.

I had 3 choices:

a. to re-aliment as I had done previously
b. take B12 supplements
c. have B12 injections(s)

This was really a landmark. I knew that I had previously been capable of assimilating B12 form my first experience a year earlier. I have a legacy of wanting to believe in the 'Power of Nature', somehow a natural solution should still be possible, but everywhere I searched, I could only find negative information about 100% raw food vegan diet and a low B12 status. I had been reading the literature about the non reversibility of neurological effects from B12 deficiency and a quick solution seemed important. My natural hygiene and nature cure adherence had not prepared me for this event. I talked to a number of vegans who had been taking B12 pill supplements and read about the expected absorption rates and times to build my level up. This could have been months possibly although I tended to think it would be sooner. I then considered the concept of having injections. I talked to people who had an injection and found the mental relief offered by a very quick potential fix to be quite appealing. The thought of knowing a solution lay readily at hand was comforting but how could I relate to it? I realized also what an opportunity I had. I considered it unlikely that I would ever again get into this predicament and I wanted to make the most of it. I therefore decided that this was the ideal time to see the effect of B12 injections. This realisation was comforting, as I had been many weeks considering the potential effects on my health and a quick, safe positive solution, one which I was initially trying to avoid, suddenly appeared completely plausible, sensible and exciting at the same time. Thus I opted for an injection. I felt exhilarated afterwards, with the thought of permanent damage largely dispelled and the long drawn out saga now at completion. I could get on with the business of life again. Three injections are recommended over about a 4 week period. I was satisfied with the results of the first. It took about 10 days for a semblance of normal feeling to return and some 3 weeks for most of the symptoms to dissipate. I then decided it would be a useful thing to do further research into B12 and investigated various schools where this could take place. So far I have not bothered as other events have overtaken me, but I still think that I will get involved with B12 research in some way in the future. I had a second injection some 2 months after the first, and the last one still sits in it's little packet in the drawer becoming outdated. I did not have another blood test to see and record my B12 level as this is really of no consequence to me, but would perhaps of been useful to others to complete my investigations. Suffice to say I feel fine and as far as I can tell there is no permanent scar as a result of my experience. It is now July 2001.

I offer this story in the hope that by recording my thoughts and actions over this issue, others may in some way benefit from my experience and normalise their own health matters as a result. Anyone wondering about the B12 conspiracy theories may also better judge for themselves what opinions to form if similar real experiences end up documented as well.

I would like to finish this article by noting a few comments which I found interesting during my own search:

á A friend re-alimented from about 180 to around 600 pg/ml B12 just by eating more roughly washed carrots from her own garden. á I know of 5 other 'vegans' who recently have also had low B12 readings, enough for each of them to have either taken supplements or in a couple of instances to have injections. Symptoms generally have been tingling/ neurological/numbness. None of them are on high raw food intake. á Apparently the coincidence of a fall in all B vitamins is consistent with body/mental stress, so B12 is just one of the group. The significance in my view of this fact is that vegans with lower maintained levels of B12 are probably less likely to be able to maintain a 'buffer' in the instance of a high imposed stressful situation, once the point of depletion is reached. This is only circumstantial reasoning on my behalf, however I think a reasonable postulate. á A long term vegan (over 30 years and a lifelong vegetarian), with access to organic foods and fresh produce, mostly raw food (not 100%) suffered from B12 deficiency symptoms and has since been told by medical staff that he will need to have injections as he is no longer capable of assimilating B12. á Tests for B12 in (read ON) foods have generally not been documented substantially. Of course cobalt traces need to be available to form cobalamin and hardly any food references to cobalt exist in literature I have viewed. Some processed foods such as fortified soymilk, cereals, marmite and some yeast varieties show B12, however, the most consistent recorded levels which I have found in raw food seem to be in Seaweed. Some references mention occasional traces on leaf matter and mushrooms, which presumably is also variable depending on soil, grazing of animals/bird life, insects and potential bacterial growth. Commercially raised B12 is grown on molasses. á Some pragmatic nature cure and natural hygienists openly state that they have had many experiences with individuals who have come to them with health problems, when trying to maintain a 100% rawfood vegan regime. á We are individuals. Some people presumably are able to maintain a raw food vegan dietary without any problems. Food sources, washing methods, soil types and history of manures, fermented food stuffs and various degrees of resilience and natural diversity amongst peoples is yet to be investigated in adequate detail to be able to identify more rigorously the effects these have on our ability to keep healthy. á A good source of B12 is from seaweeds. My body/mind just ate up lots of seaweed when I felt that I was possibly low in B12 and I do have a degree of faith in the ability to judge from this fact. I have been purchasing Dulse from Canada, (look on Internet for sources). The B12 levels have been tested and appear repeatable in various batches, so this is as good as any Known raw food source in my opinion. It may be that the residue of B12 is bacteria or even minute sea creatures. If as a vegan you are concerned, it can be further washed to reduce clinging contaminants and the possibly high salt content also reduced. The choice is always ours.

If the B12 bacterium seeks to grow on selected foods which are now becoming washed commercially before we have access to them, and we are not growing our own, then a known source of B12 may still elude us. Apart from supplements and injections that is. Probably as a vegan I am ultimately happy to make the sacrifice of these methods to maintain a non-violent outlook, but my preference is still to seek another way.

Anyway, happy hunting, eating and alimenting to you all. I would be pleased to answer any enquiries and may be contacted via this site or at zalan@rawfoods.com .. also for further info regarding B12 on a raw diet, you can read the article - "B12 on a raw food diet"

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
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PostPostano: 2.10.2008. čet. 12:11    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Citat:
U svetu poznata makrobioticarka Kristina Pirelo,izlecila se u mladosti od raka zahvaljujuci makrobiotickoj ishrani,a petnaest godina kasnije dozivela je,ali i prezivela,mozdani udar izazvan nedostatkom vitamina B12.Do mozdanog udara doslo je zbog istanjenih krvnih sudova,a ovi su bili takvi zbog nedostatka B12.Zahvaljujuci makrobiotici ponovo je prezivela,ali je to bio povod da pomno istrazi ulogu ovog vitamina u ishrani.

Kada je primljena u bolnicu,uradjene su joj analize koje su pokazale da je ozbiljno anemicna i da u krvi nema B12,sto je i dovelo do podizanja nivoa homocisteina i izazvalo krvarenje.Iz istog razloga zidovi njenih vena i arterija su bili tanki kao pirincani papir.Doktor joj je rekao da mora da promeni nacin ishrane,jer je njen prethodni rezim bio siromasan masnocama,sto ima i druge nedostatke.Receno joj je da ce bez dodatnih preparata,ponovo da dozivi mozdani udar.

Bila je sokirana,jer je 15 godina bila makrobioticar,ona i suprug su vecinu obroka kuvali sami koristeci kvalitetne namirnice...Verovali su da dobijaju dovoljne kolicine B12 iz fermentisane hrane koju su svakodnevno jeli.Suplemente su izbegavali,jer su verovali da sve potrebne hranljive materije dobijaju iz hrane.

Kristina Pirelo je dosla do sledecih zakljucaka:

1. Vitamin B12 je deo kompleksa vitamina B,a njegov nedostatak izaziva ozbiljna neuroloska oboljenja.Sadrzi kobalt,poznat kao kobalamin i iskljucivo ga preradjuju bakterije i primarno se nalazi u mleku,jajima i mlecnim proizvodima.Neophodan je za sintezu crvenih krvnih zrnaca,odrzavanje nervnog sistema,rast i razvoj dece.Nedostatak B12 moze da prouzrokuje anemiju,mozdani udar,neuropatiju,degeneraciju nervnih vlakana i ireverzibilna neuroloska ostecenja.
2. Osnovne funkcije vitamina B12 su stvaranje crvenih krvnih zrnaca i odrzavanje zdravog nervnog sistema.Neophodan je za brzu sintezu DNK a ako ga nema dovoljno stvaraju se nenormalne celije(megaloblasti).Posledice su anemija,umor,nemir,bled ten i slaba otpornost na infekcije.
3. Vitamin B12 je vazan i za odrzavanje nervnog sistema!Nervi imaju masan omotac od kompleksa proteina koji se zove mielin a ovaj vitamin igra kljucnu ulogu u metabolizmu masnih kiselina neophodnih za odrzavanje mielina.Produzen nedostatak B12 moze da dovede do degeneracije nerava i ireverzibilnih neuroloskih ostecenja a kasnije do mozdanog udara i izliva krvi u mozak.
4. Uzrok nedostatka B12 u organizmu moze da bude posledica nemogucnosti da se apsorbuje iz creva.A za apsorpciju ovog vitamina je neophodno lucenje glikoproteina iz celija zeluca.S obzirom da neki ne mogu da proizvode ovaj glikoprotein neophodno je da dobijaju injekcije B12 ili da u ishrani koriste ekstrakt kvasca,sojino mleko i biljne margarine.
5. Vitamin B12 moze u organizmu da se cuva u rezervi(2-5mg kod odraslih od cega je oko 80% u jetri).
6. Ovaj vitamin se izlucuje sa zucnom tecnoscu,ponovo se apsorbuje i to se naziva enterohepaticna cirkulacija.Oni koji unose malo vitamina B12,ukljucujuci vegane i neke vegetarijance,mogu da dobiju vise B12 od reapsorpcije nego iz hrane zbog cega prodje i po 20 godina da se nedostatak ne ispolji.A ako je nedostatak B12 posledica lose apsorpcije moze da prodje samo 3 godine da se bolest javi.
7. Jedini pouzdani izvori B12 su meso,mlecni proizvodi i jaja.Istrazivanja o tome da li ovog vitamina ima u biljkama i biljnim proizvodima(fermentisani proizvodi soje ukljucujuci tempeh,miso,soju i tamari,alge i drugo morsko bilje) nisu pokazala znacajnije prisustvo B12.S druge strane pokazalo se da u algama,spirulini i nori ima satojaka koji su po strukturi slicni vitaminu B12(takozvani B12 analogni sastojci) ali oni ne mogu da ga zamene.Istrazivanja pokazuju da ovi suplementi B12 cak mogu da povecaju rizik od nedostatka B12 s obzirom da se analogni sastojci B12 takmice sa B12 i mogu da uticu na metabolizam.
8. Ranije se verovalo da vitamin B12 proizvode bakterije u debelom crevu i da organizam moze da ga apsorbuje.Novija istrazivanja su pokazala da te bakterije mogu da sintetizuju Vitamin B12 ali se to dogadja "daleko" u crevima da bi mogao organizam da ga apsorbuje.
9. Dobri izvori vitamina B12 za vegetarijance su mlecni proizvodi ili domaca jaja,dok fermentacija u proizvodnji jogurta unistava veci deo vitamina B12.
10. Sta preostaje veganima?Nauka preporucuje hranu obogacenu vitaminom B12 kao sto su ekstrakt kvasca,soja mleko,margarini od biljaka i suncokreta(bez hidrogena i trans-masnoca) i neke obogacene zitarice za dorucak.

S obzirom da za nas koji smo se odlucili da ne jedemo zivotinjske proteine nema biljnih izvora vitamina B12,odlucila sam se za tabletice-naglasava Kristina Pirelo.-Jer,iz licnog iskustva mogu da kazem da moja standardna makrobioticka dijeta nije obezbedjivala potrebnu kolicinu B12.Jednostavnim suplementima i povecanjem kvalitetnih masnoca,kao i novim razumevanjem kako da uravnotezim posao i odmor ponovo sam otkrila sve dobrobiti zivota.

http://vegan.editboard.com/sirova-hrana-raw-food-f9/svemocni-b12-t521-15.htm
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 2.10.2008. čet. 12:51    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Jako puno priča/ iskustava ljudi s deficijentom b12:

http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=443904&highlight=b12+stories
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 4206

PostPostano: 4.10.2008. sub. 15:16    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/cases

B12 Status: Individual Cases
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ogi
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Pridružen/a: 11. 09. 2007.
Postovi: 11128
Lokacija: Zagreb

PostPostano: 8.10.2008. sri. 10:01    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

Moj tata mesojed ima 73g.
Izmjerili su mu nizak B12 u krvi nakon cega je isao na B12 injekcije + tablete sa folnom ( B9 )
Jednu injekciju mjesecno i tako zadnjih 10mj.
Nedugo je ponovio nalaz..sada ima jos manje B12!! wtf!! trlja oci Ima tikove

Najvjerojatnije je dobio injekcije cijanokobalamina Rolling Eyes
Jos prije sam mu rekao da pita koju formu B12 mu daju ali nije
Valjda bude..pa javim
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Pridružen/a: 12. 09. 2007.
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Lokacija: Split

PostPostano: 8.10.2008. sri. 12:56    Naslov: Citiraj i odgovori

ugh trlja oci
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